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Who's driving? Toyota woes raise car tech fears

MSNBC.COM -- by Bob Sullivan

We may never know why runaway Toyotas suddenly seem to be everywhere. The scariest possibility, however, is that faulty computers are driving some victims to their deaths with frightening randomness. Suspicions that an elusive software glitch in computer-controlled throttles is to blame, combined with powerful images and harrowing tales, has tapped into our primal, science-fiction fueled fear of killer computers.

Excerpts

Concerns about random computer errors are justified, Fisher said, but it's important to know that mechanical linkages also fail at random intervals.

"A cable could get kinked, the springs could get stuck, the springs could break. A stuck-open throttle could happen with a mechanical failure, and did happen," he said.

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Submitted Mar 13, 2010 By: UncleCurt

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Night Owl Champion Author Toronto Posts:5,260 Points:1,332,750 Joined:Jul 2004	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 10:48:51 PM Ignore Night Owl Report Abuse When companies don't test their products enough, the lawyers swoop in and sue the hell out of them.
Sneakers55 Champion Author Houston Posts:43,319 Points:1,711,030 Joined:Nov 2005	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 3:51:49 PM Ignore Sneakers55 Report Abuse madison8359 wrote: >No matter where Toyota has a plant, they take the money >out of the country. Well, WE own THEIR stock. THEY own OUR stock. WE do business THERE. THEY do business HERE. It's a global economy. Get used to it. >They pay lower wages Toyota has profit-sharing payments that the Detroit Three (non-intentionally) non-profit companies can't do, after all, because they don't have a profit. When Chrysler and Government Motors submitted their Viability Plan, they were required to cut their bloated wages to fall in line with what the transplants were paying. >and they are a foreign company. And exactly what does that mean? Absence of an obscenely overpaid American CEO? World headquarters somewhere in the 50 United States? Many foreign companies have "SAY ON PAY" annually. The only US company I can remember that has "SAY ON PAY" is AFLAC. And they don't need it, IMHO; the top members of management come from the founding family.
Sneakers55 Champion Author Houston Posts:43,319 Points:1,711,030 Joined:Nov 2005	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 3:40:13 PM Ignore Sneakers55 Report Abuse rx7racerca wrote: >JohnofGB wrote: Brakes don't stop the car and are >ineffective" - and your source for this was?? Who needs a source when you're throwing mud? >Nor is there any evidence of shifting to neutral failing A couple of weeks ago, I was out on a stretch of road that didn't have much traffic (yes, you can find them around Houston) so I performed an experiment. My Scion tC (essentially the same powertrain as a 4-cylinder Camry) did exactly what I would have expected from putting the transmission in neutral.
Sneakers55 Champion Author Houston Posts:43,319 Points:1,711,030 Joined:Nov 2005	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 3:33:46 PM Ignore Sneakers55 Report Abuse jeskibuff quoted, then wrote: >>CPGas1815 said: "Toyota like all corporate entities have >>only one singular goal, to reap every penny of profit >>that they can generate from their powerless customers." >Good grief. Get a grip on reality. I suspect, given that he's in Michigan, that he's aware of the way Government Motors works. Just wave the flag to the "BE AMERICAN... BUY AMERICAN" fanboys and see what happens. They'll rush out and buy a GM only if they can get somebody to loan them the money. >Goodwill is a huge part of any company's strategy to reap >continual profits. Those who destroy their own goodwill >for a short term gain hurt their long term profitability. Sounds like Government Motors. Going from a 50% market share to a 21% market share, and I suspect the 21% come from "BE AMERICAN... BUY AMERICAN" fanboys who can't decode the VIN enough to recognize their shiny new truck came from Mexico. Never fear, Americans will heve enough work keeping the shiny new Chevrolet or GMC (Garage Mechanics' Companion) on the road. >Stop thinking like all the corporations are out to get >you. They're not. "We must ever remember we are refining oil for the poor man and he must have it cheap and good." (John D. Rockefeller) And the Government thought Rockefeller was bad. >Thinking like a stupid liberal will get you nowhere, >except to foment your anger at imaginary devils. Then >you end up voting imaginary saviors into public office >in HOPEs of ousting the imaginary devils, then wonder >why things get worse, not better. And then you get things like the Credit CARD Act where now all the credit card issuers have to print a "MINIMUM PAYMENT WARNING" on the bill. One of my recent bills required 11 YEARS to pay it off at the minimum rate, and during that time I would pay $2404 in interest. American Express (one of the few credit card companies that are big on SPEND instead of RUNNING UP A BALANCE) got paid in full a week before the due date.
rx7racerca Champion Author Calgary Posts:2,579 Points:707,390 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 2:00:44 PM Ignore rx7racerca Report Abuse JohnofGB wrote: Brakes don't stop the car and are ineffective" - and your source for this was?? Nor is there any evidence of shifting to neutral failing, just that it isn't done, which is what you should do should the throttle stick, then stop the car. Fact is, Car and Driver has tested a Toyota Camry v6, just like the one involved in the alleged case of unintended acceleration of the California cop and his family. They found it stopped with throttle pinned from both 70mph and 100mph fine. In fact, it only took 17' longer to stop from 70 with the throttle pinned - still a foot shorter than a new Ford Taurus without the gas matted. http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car/10q1/toyota_recall_scandal_media_circus_and_stupid_drivers-editorial
madison8359 Champion Author Cleveland Posts:5,731 Points:1,126,665 Joined:Apr 2008	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:51:44 PM Ignore madison8359 Report Abuse No matter where Toyota has a plant, they take the money out of the country. They pay lower wages and they are a foreign company. Maybe they put the HAL 9000 in charge of all the computers!
jeskibuff Champion Author Tampa Posts:5,296 Points:983,385 Joined:May 2004	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:50:19 PM Ignore jeskibuff Report Abuse CPGas1815 said: "Toyota like all corporate entities have only one singular goal, to reap every penny of profit that they can generate from their powerless customers." Good grief. Get a grip on reality. Goodwill is a huge part of any company's strategy to reap continual profits. Those who destroy their own goodwill for a short term gain hurt their long term profitability. Stop thinking like all the corporations are out to get you. They're not. Thinking like a stupid liberal will get you nowhere, except to foment your anger at imaginary devils. Then you end up voting imaginary saviors into public office in HOPEs of ousting the imaginary devils, then wonder why things get worse, not better.
Sneakers55 Champion Author Houston Posts:43,319 Points:1,711,030 Joined:Nov 2005	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:48:12 PM Ignore Sneakers55 Report Abuse nojsts wrote: >Stop buying Toyot's. Support American businesses. I assume from that you'd be happy to have Toyota's Saint Louis facility go away and put everyone out in the street. Didn't know Toyota has a Saint Louis facility?
AcuraTL2009 Rookie Author British Columbia Posts:49 Points:18,930 Joined:Jul 2009	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:47:18 PM Ignore AcuraTL2009 Report Abuse Toyota may not survive this. This has been going on for awhile and loyal Toyota owners are daily getting bombarded by images of runaway Toyotas that could be stopped by putting it into neutral as many of you said. It is only too logical and easy to remember. The Toyota driver in California was a great ad for the traditional US big 3 as is the Congressional Committee and Mr LaHood to restore their loyalty in spite of the fact that many so called Japanese cars are made in the USA. My car was made in the US as all Acura TL's are and many Toyota vehicles. Vancouver,BC
Sneakers55 Champion Author Houston Posts:43,319 Points:1,711,030 Joined:Nov 2005	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:45:57 PM Ignore Sneakers55 Report Abuse redhornet wrote: >I don't know why anyone would of bought a foreign car in >the first place. Because they're GOOD. My late father, despite fighting WWII in the Pacific Theatre, told me to buy import cars because they're BETTER than what Detroit turns out. I didn't always take his advice, but I've been happier with the vehicles where I did take his advice. >Keep America strong buy here. The fact the world headquarters is located in Michigan should have nothing whatsoever to do with the vehicle buying decision. WE (Detroit Three) make vehicles THERE (foreign countries) and bring them in. THEY (import vehicle companies) make vehicles HERE (the USA). WE own THEIR stock. THEY own OUR stock (if the company is healthy enough to have stock in the same place, a majority of the Detroit Three aren't). WE buy THEIRS. THEY buy OURS. It's a global economy. Get used to it. It has been said that "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." IMHO, that applies double when it's used as a marketing device.
NewfieGasMan All-Star Author Newfoundland Posts:616 Points:648,005 Joined:Oct 2009	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:45:14 PM Ignore NewfieGasMan Report Abuse one would think they would be giving a better offer than what they are giving.
hank1326 Champion Author Los Angeles Posts:6,691 Points:1,279,415 Joined:Jun 2008	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:44:07 PM Ignore hank1326 Report Abuse Ditto to nojsts. Stop buying Toyota cars. This will send a strong message to the auto makers for not taking care of business promptly.
UncleCurt Champion Author Winnipeg Posts:4,583 Points:779,215 Joined:Feb 2009	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:43:10 PM Ignore UncleCurt Report Abuse NavyEOD, The Gas Buddy article submission guidelines have a "related automotive articles" clause which state: "Articles should be on the topics of gas prices, crude oil, clean energy, fuel efficient vehicles or related automotive articles." You can try to submit a story and look at the guidelines yourself. http://www.winnipeggasprices.com/Suggest-News-Article.aspx This is a energy source and transportation industry site as well as gas and oil.
rx7racerca Champion Author Calgary Posts:2,579 Points:707,390 Joined:Sep 2008	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:42:56 PM Ignore rx7racerca Report Abuse "Why runaway Toyotas suddenly seem to be everywhere" - could be the endless stream of speculative "news" stories that extrapolate from a handful of incidents, some of which already shown to be hoaxes (google Prius hoax) to "everywhere" Worth noting: all the Toyota models affected by the supposed sticking throttles are built in North America - and the sticking throttles are supplied by a domestic parts supplier too, which also supplies the "domestics". So punishing Toyota will cost American workers jobs. Contrast the 27 deaths alleged to have occurred in Toyotas with sticky throttles with 1800+ fire deaths in GM C/K series pickups from 1973-2000. But no noisy media or public outrage there. Guess it's ok for the Heartbeat of America to snuff the heartbeats of Americans. [Edited by: rx7racerca at 3/13/2010 2:46:50 PM EST]
TheDix Champion Author Ontario Posts:1,997 Points:358,235 Joined:Dec 2009	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:38:35 PM Ignore TheDix Report Abuse Even if all these computer controlled parts operated perfectly they are still way too costly to buy and repair. Its a terrible thing that people died but it should be a wake up call for consumers to say enough. We don't want these confounded things in our cars.There are too many things to go wrong.
Sneakers55 Champion Author Houston Posts:43,319 Points:1,711,030 Joined:Nov 2005	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:37:35 PM Ignore Sneakers55 Report Abuse CPGas1815 wrote: >Toyota like all corporate entities have only one singular >goal, to reap every penny of profit that they can generate >from their powerless customers. "Powerless customers?" That thought is irrational at best. Their customers have the power to go down the street and buy from a myriad of other brands, both domestic and foreign. And if you've ever priced a Toyota (not something you would expect to do in Michigan) THEY CHARGE MORE. >They have no interest in producing reliable vehicles. Then why do they do reliability better than Government Motors and Mopar? Maybe it has something to do with kaizen. Government Motors advertising seems lately to think people want reliable vehicles. Although I don't think Ed Whitacre makes a good pitchman, he's too much down-home Texan. I just hope he knows enough to say "what the heck?" (or stronger) several times a day. >Rather, their goal is cheat their customers of the >chance to live a long and productive life.. That's irrational thinking. Dead customers buy no more cars.
JohnofGB Champion Author Flint Posts:3,070 Points:630,245 Joined:Feb 2010	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:37:33 PM Ignore JohnofGB Report Abuse Apparently some people are not aware of the actual problems. First, Toyota switched to a "cableless' electronic accelerator. Second, shifting into neutral or any gear doesn't work. The brakes don't stop the car and are ineffective. And you cannot shut the engine off. See the film clip of the four people in San Diego that were on their cell phone when the car accelerated uncontrollably. The guy doing the calling was a California Highway Patrolman in the back seat. They all died. More people are going to die. Toyota has known there have been problems since they switched to this wireless computer controlled accelerator.
smoketown Champion Author Cincinnati Posts:3,984 Points:932,440 Joined:Feb 2008	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:37:29 PM Ignore smoketown Report Abuse When i see one around me while driving , i get this wondering feeling what might happen............
redhornet Champion Author Minnesota Posts:1,078 Points:516,300 Joined:Dec 2009	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:33:36 PM Ignore redhornet Report Abuse I don't know why anyone would of bought a foreign car in the first place.Keep America strong buy here.
NavyEOD Champion Author Los Angeles Posts:7,697 Points:1,564,875 Joined:Jul 2007	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:32:43 PM Ignore NavyEOD Report Abuse This has nothing to do with gas prices!!!
julius1st4 Champion Author Ontario Posts:3,137 Points:1,026,070 Joined:Jul 2003	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:31:45 PM Ignore julius1st4 Report Abuse I have had "Mechanical" linkage problems [in the past]. In all my cases; the throttle just returned to it's "Idle" position.
bozo Champion Author Boston Posts:3,401 Points:1,836,395 Joined:Feb 2003	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:30:24 PM Ignore bozo Report Abuse valricoslash is stating what a lot of other folks are thinking.
nojsts Champion Author St. Louis Posts:14,048 Points:2,829,905 Joined:May 2002	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:27:54 PM Ignore nojsts Report Abuse Stop buying Toyot's. Support American businesses.
JoeKR Champion Author New Jersey Posts:7,243 Points:1,415,465 Joined:Feb 2006	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:26:33 PM Ignore JoeKR Report Abuse It would be interesting to review all these cases and see how many "victims" actually dropped the car into neutral, as mentioned in earlier posts, and how effective that was. Of course, that wouldn't prevent the occurrences, but it would seem to be a good strategy to diminish the potential damage.
Mowerman08 Champion Author Milwaukee Posts:2,475 Points:780,655 Joined:Aug 2008	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:26:08 PM Ignore Mowerman08 Report Abuse Maybe they were using the Hal 2000:) "I can't do that Dave".
oldiesman Champion Author New York Posts:4,211 Points:1,762,950 Joined:May 2006	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:25:56 PM Ignore oldiesman Report Abuse I would never even drive one. Just bought new volkswagen, Tiguan small suv beautiful.
CPGas1815 Champion Author Michigan Posts:4,171 Points:725,405 Joined:Apr 2008	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:23:48 PM Ignore CPGas1815 Report Abuse Toyota like all corporate entities have only one singular goal, to reap every penny of profit that they can generate from their powerless customers. They have no interest in producing reliable vehicles. Rather, their goal is cheat their customers of the chance to live a long and productive life..
esquared Champion Author Oklahoma City Posts:6,082 Points:1,573,875 Joined:Jan 2006	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:20:59 PM Ignore esquared Report Abuse I'm with Valricoslash.
83stang Veteran Author Ohio Posts:299 Points:210,865 Joined:Jul 2008	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:20:56 PM Ignore 83stang Report Abuse sounds like pepole looking for somthing for nothing
BobbyVA Champion Author Virginia Beach Posts:3,426 Points:746,965 Joined:Jul 2009	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:20:20 PM Ignore BobbyVA Report Abuse Most Americans cannot comprehend that when a car is racing out of control you need to shift to neutral and then brake. You automatically step on the brake when your going to fast. The guy on the freeway kept saying I've got to brake and the dispatcher said put it in neutral, but he also kept saying I've got to get it under control. It was to good to be true, seemed like a plant from Govt Motors or UAW trying to get a piece of the pie back.
DellDude2 Champion Author Nashville Posts:6,773 Points:1,654,785 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:19:00 PM Ignore DellDude2 Report Abuse I've often wondered about slipping an engine into neutral that's out of control.... the engine would blow without a rev limiter.
Valricoslash Champion Author Tampa Posts:4,285 Points:885,395 Joined:Nov 2008	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:18:23 PM Ignore Valricoslash Report Abuse I wonder how many of these run-away situations are scams. It seems like there are several a day on the news, but we rarely heard about them before it became a big news story. the attornys are coming out of the woodwork to cash in on this so I am sure there will lots of scams going on.
Sam195 Champion Author San Bernardino Posts:5,750 Points:1,113,925 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:18:11 PM Ignore Sam195 Report Abuse The Toyotas have reached self-awareness and are trying to take over.
Dennisjk Champion Author Detroit Posts:4,567 Points:1,493,920 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:16:35 PM Ignore Dennisjk Report Abuse I agree with jocamat. Put it in neutral. How hard can that be?
WilW Champion Author Atlanta Posts:9,859 Points:2,210,785 Joined:Aug 2004	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:15:36 PM Ignore WilW Report Abuse Many Americans are too stupid to realize the seriousness of piloting a motor vehicle at 50-60-70-80 mph. Get some skills, cupcake, and put down the cell phone, eyeliner, book or newspaper. Otherwise, the Cylons will be your master.
jocamat Champion Author New Jersey Posts:10,785 Points:1,355,130 Joined:Jul 2005	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:15:20 PM Ignore jocamat Report Abuse I don't understand why those Toyota drivers don't shift into Neutral and then brake. The engine may be racing but if you are not in gear , you can stop moving.
rocket_ron Champion Author Grand Rapids Posts:3,913 Points:1,527,945 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:09:16 PM Ignore rocket_ron Report Abuse Seems too easy to just put the transmission in neutral or shut off the engine. But, in a panic, you might not be thinking clearly.
bby Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:3,594 Points:603,545 Joined:Nov 2009	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:05:30 PM Ignore bby Report Abuse Now when I see a toyota I am extra cautious
TRAIN RIDER Champion Author San Bernardino Posts:6,763 Points:2,297,910 Joined:Oct 2004	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:04:10 PM Ignore TRAIN RIDER Report Abuse SHUT THE ENGINE OFF IF IT SPEEDS UP WITH OUT YOU DOING IT.
swrestler Champion Author Grand Rapids Posts:3,780 Points:1,104,500 Joined:Oct 2008	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:03:25 PM Ignore swrestler Report Abuse Shouldn't be driving if the car doesn't run right....
Dipstick1 Champion Author Amarillo Posts:6,621 Points:1,759,910 Joined:Jan 2006	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 1:01:23 PM Ignore Dipstick1 Report Abuse If you can't stop your car, you shouldn't be driving.
52MPG Champion Author Dayton Posts:4,904 Points:1,277,405 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Mar 13, 2010 12:23:35 PM Ignore 52MPG Report Abuse There needs to be a sharing of information on the new technology to find out what works reliably and eliminate what does not.